Conversation with Sari Nordman

Please enjoy my conversation with Sari Nordman. 

Sari was born and raised in Finland, and is now a New York - based interdisciplinary artist. She creates public art projects, fiber-art installations, and mixed media and video works. Many of her projects have been informed by climate change and respond to environmental social justice issues. To amplify multilingual voices from around the world, she engages people of diverse backgrounds through interviews and fiber-arts processes. 

As an artist, Sari is interested in exploring questions around protecting nature and ourselves through experiments with fiber-arts and interview processes. She is interested in how art can change people’s perspectives on consumerism and environmentalism, and can help lift human spirits from eco-anxiety towards advocacy.

https://sarinordman.com/ 

https://sarinordman.com/bridging-voices-on-climate-change/ 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1weIHGo3Vbd6qin9lM-vcaqTWnHn6lGX 

https://catwalkinstitute.org/

https://www.theimmigrantartistbiennial.com/

https://jcal.org/jamaica-flux-u

https://www.kingmanor.org/

https://ps122gallery.org/

https://socratessculpturepark.org/

https://irvingtonlibrary.org/martucci-gallery-program-room Sari’s exhibit!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCOBY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kintsugi

https://sva.edu/

This podcast was created by Natalya Khorover. It was produced and recorded by Natalya, as well as researched and edited by her. SALVAGE is a product of ECOLOOP.ART.

If you enjoy this show, please rate and review us wherever you’re listening—and be sure to come back for another conversation with a repurposed media artist.

Music theme by RC Guida

Visit Natalya’s website at www.artbynatalya.com

Visit Natalya’s community at www.repurposercollective.com

Visit Natalya’s workshops at https://www.ecoloop.art/

Transcript

Welcome to Salvage, a podcast for conversations with artists about the repurposed materials they use in their art practice.

Thank you so much for agreeing to do this, Sari. I've been intrigued with your art for a while now, and I know we chatted a little bit when we were in that exhibit together at MapSpace. So I am eager to find out more, because I looked down on your website and there's many intriguing things.

So let me read the intro first, if you don't mind.

Please enjoy my conversation with Sari Nordman. Sari. Is it Sari or Sari? Sari. Sari. Is that better? Sari. Sari was born and raised in Finland and is now a New York based interdisciplinary artist. She creates public art project, fiber art installations, and mixed media and video works.

Many of her projects have been informed by climate change and respond to environmental social justice issues

To amplify multilingual voices from around the world, she engages people of diverse backgrounds through interviews and fiber arts processes. As an artist, Sari is interested in exploring questions around protecting nature and ourselves through experiments with fiber arts and interview processes. She's interested in how art can change people's perspectives on consumerism and and environmentalism, and can help lift human spirits from eco anxiety towards advocacy.

I love your art a statement. Thank you. So many good points there. So thank you for welcoming me into your home and studio. It's delightful and very European, which I love. Okay, so the first question I like to ask is where you are an artist as a kid? Was an artist as a kid? Yeah. Well, first of all, I just want to say thank you, Natalia, for having me and for that intro.

And thank you for doing this podcast. Artist. As a kid, I discovered dance at a very early age, and I, I had opportunities to do visual arts and music, growing up in Finland. So, there was a big creative component as part of, when I was growing up, but I never thought that I was going to be a visual artist.

Oh, I really fell in love with dance. And, that's what I pursued. And that's what brought me to this country. Oh, really? So you went to university for dance? Yeah. I went to NYU. I got my masters. Oh. So oh okay. So you didn't go to university in Finland? You went to university here? Yes.

Oh, okay. NYU. Okay. Yeah. And and then I worked. I was, professional dancer. I toured in this country, a little bit internationally. And I also from the very early, when I started starting dance more, seriously, I was interested in choreography as well. And then I tried to make it as a choreographer, and that was much more challenging.

And I gave myself actually, eventually I gave myself a deadline because I felt like my my whole artistic process was turning into an application process. So there was, like, no creative component. Yeah. So ever the admin takes over and you get to do it. And so then I gave myself a deadline that passed and I was like, I need to move on.

And in the transition period, I started making dance videos. I actually traveled to Greece. A friend of mine invited me to go to Greece and and he sort of, amateur or like a self-made historian. And, I was introduced to all these archeological sites in Greece, and I fell in love with that and the whole landscape in Greece.

And so I was making and he's also like a filmmaker. So, so he was filming me dancing on these sites and it was all lovely. And when I was there, I also I kind of like being on this ancient sites, was sort of like seeing that history, felt like, because I had. So I felt like I had so much worry and anxiety about my own career coming to an end and my identity and all that.

Yeah. And, so then seeing, seeing these little plants grow through the marbles and these ancient on these ancient sites that are, like, thousands of years old, like it felt in some ways really relieving to felt like, oh, I'm just a little component in this long timeline. And then also seeing that, vitality of nature.

That just hit me. And then I started thinking about the remains, the ancient remains. Oh, living in New York City, I was thinking about, well, what would be the contemporary remains, and, and I was thinking about the plastic chaos in the city, and, and I wanted to make something that would frame plastic waste. Oh, interesting. So I was going to ask when you discovered plastic waste.

So it was in Greece. Yeah. That's when I started. Like I started I had, after one of my chips decrease, I had this, like, kind of like, almost like a vision. I wanted to see a fallen tower, with, and, so then I realized that I had to build a tower before I could actually make it fall.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. That tower was to frame plastic waste, and so I. It's called Tower Project. Yes, I have it's on my list to ask you about, but if we could stop for a moment. Okay. So when you were in these ancient ruins in Greece, was there plastic trash between those stones? No, I did not.

I mean, I think plastic waste is everywhere. Yeah, but I did not see, okay, plastic waste over there, but I was I was sort of,

like, juxtaposing, like just thinking about the ancient remains and the marbles and the. Because you can find lots of ceramic pieces and the ancient sites, like, there's lots of clay and, little marble pieces because everything is eroding.

Yeah. Over time. And this is what it's left. And it's it's all very beautiful. And you can sometimes you might find a clay piece that has like a little bit of ancient like you can see ancient paintings or something like, like there's, there's a lot of remnants of, from ancient people, ancient Greeks. And these, on these sites, and that made you start thinking about what we would leave behind that.

Exactly. Yeah. And I was thinking about especially the plastic waste and like how buildings are made out of plastic and everything is made out of plastic. And I was sure. Yeah. Yeah. And and I was just thinking like, okay, so that will not be a 3D site, like in, in, hundreds of years, maybe even thousands of years.

It will not be a 3D site. While they are saying that we're living in the age of Anthropocene, and I think I recently read somewhere, I can't remember who said it, but they were calling it the Age of the Plasticine. Because it's just, you know, the plastic and the other trash that we are leaving behind as opposed to beautiful artifacts.

Yeah. Yeah. And then I also started thinking about how nature because obviously nature can survive. Yeah. The ancient people like the nature is thriving. It's it's growing through the marbles. And I just thought that that was something really beautiful. Yeah. Like it just gave me new hope and new direction. And then I was thinking how nature can survive us.

And I mean lots of diversity in the, in biodiversity is it's not like it's not thriving. There are so many animals and plants that are going off extinct. Yeah. Which will harm the humans. And, everything. Yeah, everything. But nature will survive. Absolutely. Nature will survive. It will adapt. In some ways it will. But, it will be something very different.

It'd be something very different. And it might become the hostile environment for human beings. Yeah. So that's what I was. This was sort of the premise. Okay. And then I wanted to make I made one dance video where, plastic is also sort of the subject and the material, in my, my works, I was like, juxtaposing the Greek landscape with, with, because I was, I was going to the Brighton Beach.

Oh. And so I was filming the plastics, plastic bags flying on the beach on the beach. Such a lovely sight. Yeah. So I was kind of like, juxtaposing me running an increase. And then with these plastic bags flying, and I started feeling like these plastic bags, they're almost like new organisms in a way, because they, they just set of when you are walking on the street, like they kind of like walk with you.

Yes. They fly. It's true. I fly with you and they are tangling in the trees, kind of like leaves or like it's there's actually something very beautiful about it. I think to me, I think it's, it's both it's two things. It's ugly and yet it's beautiful. The way it moves and flutter is in the wind. Yeah. I mean, it's disturbing.

Yes, it's very disturbing. So that's why I wanted to make plastic, like a subject in my work. So why did you want to put plastic in a tower? So I the so I was thinking, like. So how I was taller. While I was thinking about the skyscrapers. And then I was thinking about the ancient towers.

And so I was thinking about all these tower elements, and I think partially it also comes because I'm a feminist. So I was thinking about this phallic quality. Okay. And all the phallus ism like that, we live in kind of like, okay. And the destruction that and like how nature in some ways I'm thinking about the horizontal and I sort of like this female character, maybe like I was, I was also thinking like this was also something that I was, kind of like on the back of my mind thinking and kind of like criticizing the phallus ism and, sort of the verticality of, of things and, and sort of this pompous

quality. Okay, mystical quality makes total sense. Total sense. And, so and then when I was like, telling people that I'm going to build a tower and, people are like, oh, like Tower of Babel And I was like, yeah, Tower of Babel. And then I had an opportunity to go to an artist residency. Being an NYU alumni, there's this artist residency called Catwalk Institute in Catskill, New York.

And, so I had with an architect friend, we sort of engineered this tower and how it would stand up and, and here in my apartment, you can see it. Remnants. Oh. That's okay. I'll take video of that later. So portion of the tower, you have it well hidden with your other artwork. Fabulous. Yeah. So then I made this, at this residency, I made this first prototype of tower out of, like, wire mesh, and, and I was thinking about different ways of, having the tower frame plastic.

So just for a second. So I saw the video of you on your website making the mesh. I love that from the very beginning of your veering into art as opposed to dance, you're taking videos of everything every step of the way. That's amazing. That you have all that footage for for footage. I can't speak footage for you.

Yeah. So, I, yeah, because I think I was so focused on video at that time, so I felt like it was essential for me to videotape my process because I think also being a dancer, like, I like I something about movement. Like, partially, I wanted to frame the plastic waste in motion. Like that was also the videos the only way to do that.

And and then and like putting it in an installation and outside and as a pop up you can see the plastic moving, but then also like doing the video of me in motion making, making the work like, like I kind of was sort of gravitating towards also sharing that movement of movement, of making things. And then that becomes like also like this movement of resistance, movement of of advocacy.

Yeah. Yeah. So like that's, that's the whole idea of videotaping my work. But I think it that that part comes from my dance background. Right. Well, and you said you were just working with your friend who was a, an art. No. The videographer, a friend, the film filmmaker friend. Yeah. Yeah, I could see how that just builds from there.

Yeah. So then I learned, Yeah, I learned, filmmaking. I mean, I've been taking photographs all my life, but I never just thought that I would be a photographer because I just feel like that field is so, so, competitive. Yeah. And I don't have the, like, the, like the technical or those, like, abilities. So I was just like, like, but I have, I think I have compositional skills.

Yeah. So, so that's why I, I felt comfortable videotaping myself and, and, having been in front of a camera, right. As a dancer, as a dancer, it was felt natural. Yeah, yeah. So. Okay, so back to the tower. So you how did you suspend the plastic in the tower? And so first I was like, okay, I'm going to feel or the like, like the idea was like to make it sort of like an apartment building, like cubes.

Cubes of, these wire mesh cubes. And I was thinking, like, okay, I'm just going to fill it with lots, lots of plastic. But then I was like, well, maybe it will actually be more effective if it's just a single screen plastic. So then at this residency Catwalk Institute, I built the tower. I was able to erect it, and, and then and it was outside and then I saw how the sun was hitting the plastic screens and, and, it, it started really speaking to me in a different way.

And I realized that, hey, this tower has potential for also being maybe a video installation. And then I was thinking about the Tower of Babel, and I was thinking about multilingualism and and instead of thinking like multilingualism is a punishment, I was thinking, we need to have a union of languages instead of a set of focusing on this environmental crisis.

Yeah. Like we need sort of find it to find union across cultures and languages. I love that, to think about how we can solve the climate crisis. It's interesting. I watched one of your videos and you have the video projections on the piece of plastic and people talking. And when I first watched it, listening to two people talk at the same time, I was like, I turned it off.

I was like, that is so disorienting. Like it was just it was too much. But then I give it a chance and I turn it back on, and I was like, then you hear like the, the melody of the language. Like it wasn't languages that I could understand. I don't know what it would have been like if it was a language I could understand, but to me, like calming down or not, that I was agitated, but just, you know, making myself sit and watch and listen to all the different languages speaking over one another, it became very musical, like it was something really beautifully musical about it.

Thank you for saying that. Yeah, yeah. And I, I mean, some, then like the, the final project, I kind of, I wanted to highlight certain voices. So sometimes it was solo voices, but then also like, I felt like the cacophony of voices, and maybe, they are not, audible or understandable, but I thought that that would also be effective because everybody is talking about their experience with climate change.

So that's what tower is about. Discussing personal experiences, climate change and, and I also wanted it to be multilingual because I wanted the tower to connect with as many people as possible. Yeah. So, like, you might not maybe sometimes you don't hear your language. But then someone else might recognize Arabic. Yeah. Or, some Indian language or Chinese language.

Yeah. No, I mean, we're living in a very multilingual society here in New York anyways. Yeah. I mean, everywhere in the world, but especially in New York. Yeah. So most of those, yeah. So then when I had done this first prototype, I started the quest for doing this interviews, and I, first practice with friends in the city, and then I had a one gallery event where I invited people to join, and I was just mesmerized.

How many people came? Oh, wow. And, I mean, and each interview takes about 20 minutes. So I was like, the whole day. Oh, wow. Just went like from you must have been exhausted. Yeah. It was kind of exhausting, but also like exhilarated. Yeah, yeah, I could I was just so mesmerized how many people wanted to share their voice?

Like, it just felt like people want people want activities. Yes. People want something to do that to help the environment. And, so did you have like a set of questions for them that you. Shared with them? And then they answered in their own language is or how did it work? So the way it worked is that we discussed, first we discussed English, I didn't we didn't always have, common language with my interviewees.

And I also did these interviews in Finland. So, some, some interviewees, they felt more comfortable speaking in Finnish. But mostly we spoke in English and, and then I asked them to share, like I, I was taking notes of the talking points and I asked them to share some of the same things in their native language for the recording.

So I was not part of the recording. Okay. Yeah. And most of my interviews were in person. So I have been in residencies in Finland where I've and also like gone to language schools. There was a big refugee crisis like around 2015 in Europe. And, and there were many people from around the world, in Finland that I could interview.

And I was in residencies in Finland. I approached a language school where I interviewed many people, and then I was also in England. I was in a residency where I interviewed people, and then here I have, like, right now, I don't I haven't had, like an open call for in-person interviews, but then like, I, like the first Ghost Tower.

The first time I had an exhibition was 2021. And, and actually the first exhibition would have been 2020, but because of the pandemic, I wonder why I needed to make, like a video version. And that's when actually the, the, the process video became very helpful. Yeah. And I decided to, edit the process video and then include those interviews.

Kind of like, overlaps. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the final step with, the process. Like, how many interviews do you have now? For the original tower, I,

Like, maybe around 80 or. Wow. And 35 different languages. Wow. And then now for the podcast. I have, like, more than 15. Wow. Yeah. So the podcast is the continuation of the physical tower project then. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, so the first whole project is started during the first Trump administration. Oh, and where was it exhibit. Is it was exhibited, well, first time 2020 with as part of the Immigrant Artist Biennial.

Oh, yeah. I saw that on your CV and I didn't know what that was. Artist Katia Krakowski, if I pronounce her last name. She organized it, and, and there was, I think there was a physical. There was a some physical exhibition. But then most, most, biggest part of that exhibition was, was online virtually.

And they built a nice website for that exhibition. And then they've had an, I think they had had before that they had had an exhibition. And then since. Oh, interesting. I'll have to dive into that and take a look and definitely add the link to the show notes. Yeah. And then I was, accepted to for Jamaica Flux, organized by Jamaica Center for Arts and Learning in Queens.

In Queens. And, it was, public art exhibition right next to the King Manor Museum, like in Rufus King Park. Oh, I'm not familiar with it in Jamaica, Queens. Oh, cool. And, that's when I first time, like, went through the New York City parks application process. Also New York City forestry and, and then it was also exhibited at in East Village and as part of Performance Mix Festival.

Oh, wow. And it was sort of like when people were entering, it was at the if, you know, the P.S. 122 yeah. Like now it's called performance Space. So there's like a little courtyard and and that was a beautiful, beautiful spot. So when people were entering to the performance mix, they saw the tower and they heard the tower.

Yeah, they heard the tower. And then also like, sort of in between, like when there was, like in the end, as people were also leaving. No. Yeah. Okay. I have to ask a technical question. How do you do video projection? Plastic. It actually, it's no problem. No. Well, clearly you have to know some video and electronic skills.

Yeah. I mean, one interesting thing when I first made the proposal, like, because I was thinking I can rent three projectors. And that was not expensive. But then all of a sudden the projection rental prices skyrocketed. Like you could like basically buy a projector for the same price as you were renting. Oh wow. So this was like weird thing.

That happened during the pandemic. It's everybody was using them or something I don't know. Yeah. I don't know what was going on. So that kind of like, was a little bit of a challenge. But then people were able to borrow, protectors, and I have, I have my own. So I was able to use that.

So do you. Is it a tiny little projector that gets mounted to the tower itself? It's an outside, so it's like outside. So it have, like it's like, a three projectors, like around the tower. And then they are in different heights, each projector protects, three screens. So the tower is nine cubes. Oh, my.

I didn't know that there were projectors that could project on three screens at once. Well, that's how I have to edit, like, so it's like like all of the film is edited that way. Gotcha. Okay. So that then it. Yeah. Wow. And it's a whole different skill level. Yeah. Then there there's also like, like the speaker for each projector separately.

Wow. Yeah. And these can stay outside because I saw footage of these towers outside outdoors. Well, I mean, like, like ideal, like, if I wanted it to really, exhibit the, like, the full time. Yes. Tell us, tell us, tell us the whole vision. Like, then the product has to stay with stay outside. But obviously there would need be need to be, you know, like a weather proofed, box.

And same thing with the speakers. And, and, the projectors, they don't work during daylight hours, so it has to be nighttime. Yeah. So, so in these exhibitions, I had, I had, like, projection nights or like performance mix. It happened over a weekend, and so it was the evening when people were arriving. And so it was dark enough.

Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. So, like, the sunlight is so, so bright, like no protector can be okay. Luminous enough to fight the sunlight. Yeah, yeah. So, so that's the thing. Okay. So but then in a ideal world, like in the evening, the projectors would turn on, and then there would be these people speaking, x amount of hours.

Yeah. And at the same time, there's this undulating plastic. Right. So the, Yeah. Oh, that's how I'd have it. That's amazing. Wow. And. So this project is ongoing now as a podcast. And then I'm assuming that you're also hoping to exhibit the tower itself in some place and a place here or there. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I have to ask, did you apply to the Socrates garden?

I am breaking out on the name of them, the Socrates Park. I have in the past. Okay. Yeah, I think the tower project sounds like it's perfect for that space. I don't know if you've been there. It's, I am right across the river. Yeah, I have a flight, but I didn't apply this last, last time I did, I didn't get in.

But, you know, I think it's very competitive. It is very competitive. But I think that sounds like the right kind of project for that space. Fingers crossed. Right. Yeah. I didn't know how to apply. Maybe in the future. Yeah. Yeah. I would also love, because then you could get the whole like, like learn about different technical, like welding.

Yeah. Like they would give I mean, I for this project I learned welding. Yeah. That's exciting. Yeah. And that was exciting. Yeah, yeah, yeah I learned to use power tools and it's fun. Power tools are fun. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. So how did your knotted knitted plastic pieces come about? So. So I was, so, I mean, my whole idea was that the tower will fall.

And then it will be covered in moss and the moss is plastic. So, like, in some ways, I've been thinking about these tapestries as, like the moss. Okay. That will cover eventually the tower. It will rain from the sky. Okay. I can't wait to see that. Like, it's sort of like the, I guess there is this, like,

Kind of like this. Doomscrolling in a way. Like. Oh, okay. Doomsday kind of thinking, like. Like they'll just be plastic. Everything will be out of plastic. Everything will be out of plastic, the plastic will run. And this, the rain from the sky. It probably already does. Yeah.

Well, yes, I think it was just recently that they said there is microplastics found in clouds. Yeah. I'm not surprised. No, not at all. Yeah, yeah. So. But this, I actually don't know what to call them. Are they're weavings or, do you like, is there a specific process? I'm looking at the one that you have on the wall, like, what's the or.

It's knotting. It's knotting. I had like a workshop where I invited people to participate in my process, and I, I called it weaving. Okay. And then there was a we were and and she seemed very angry. That is not weaving. This is not weaving. And I mean, in some ways it is weaving as well. But then I was like, okay, I need to call it something else because I don't want to.

So what do you call it? I call it knotting. Not a process. Okay. Because it is it is a knotting. What's the base for? It? It has this, plastic cred, like deer fencing or something like that. It's like, a rug that goes under, rugs. It's like the non-slip. Oh, the non-slip rug. Yeah.

That's brilliant because it's lightweight, too, right? Yeah. I have, I had a rug like that on when I was growing up. It was like next to my bed. And then, during the pandemic, I spent more time in Finland, and I, there's a lot of hand crafts making in my family, and I, I, I became more intrigued by the handcrafts and not inspired to try some hand crafts, because growing up in Finland in the 80s, it was like all those skills were sort of looked down upon because it was easier to buy things.

Yeah, but now I was thinking like, oh, it would be really nice to like actually make some handcraft. Yeah. And so then I, I again, I was in a residency at catwalk Institute, and that's where I first started processing, in 2022. This, this, these rugs, tapestries, I call them, even though they are more three dimensional.

So I don't know if tapestries is a correct word either. I think in some ways these words are so interchangeable, you know, like, because is it so I the art I make looks like an art quilt. Except that it's not art. It's not a quilt because it's had a plastic. But the techniques are the same. And I can't tell you how many people call it a tapestry.

Like, that's not a tapestry. That's a completely different process. So I don't know. I think these I feel like these names of crafts are getting so interchangeable these days. Or maybe it's just lack of knowledge. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a very. Yeah, it's a very tedious process. It's like a very slow process. Extremely slow. Yeah.

And I and then when I was making it, I was like, oh, this is like I used to start feeling left of calm. Like in some ways I also like working with colors. And I found it very calming. And I was thinking like, wow, I have all these echo anxieties, but this is like, it's it gives me agency.

Yeah, like some little agency in making something. I felt like, oh, this is my anxiety process project. That's the name. Okay. And then I was thinking like, yeah, that's a great name. This is an Anxiety Project. I love that. And then I've, like, I have anxiety tower anxiety flag. Then individual tapestries may be called anxiety number one.

Number two, long anxiety when they are long and skinny. Medium anxiety, shorter or short anxiety. And you've done dance videos with them too? I did not do a dance video, but I did. I was invited to perform and then, I, I felt like, I, like, I don't have I lack the dance skill that I had years ago, so I felt like I need to approach from a more visual perspective.

So, and people have been saying like, oh, these look like before, like these could be like great fashion items. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to try wearing them. And, and so then I decided to wear them for a performance which was called anxiety swimming exercise. Oh, okay. So in the performance, I, imagined, like a big crate flood in New York.

And I invited people in the audience to, to swim and I love that practice swimming. And ducking from the burning is burning like the big fire. So that was. Yeah. So I had there's this one picture where I'm, like, shouting, like, yeah, pictures swim. Yeah. And you've also done these anxiety knotting projects with people in workshops.

How did that come about? Well, I, I work as a teaching artist in New York City's public schools. So, and then with the tower, that was very socially engaged. And I really loved the process of inviting people to participate. And, and this very diverse communities to participate. So all that kind of was sort of the premise.

And I was like, this has to be socially engaged. Okay. And, so I was invited to, join shared dialog, shared space, and I was that I did, mini workshops at New York City summer streets. Oh, cool. In 2024. And, that was in Harlem and the Bronx. So did people make little pieces to add to one big piece, or were these little pieces that they got to keep?

I mean, occasionally like like I've done some workshops, like in a King Manor Museum, like they suggested, people can take something home. So, but mostly I've had, I've had like, oh, here's a communal rug, like, come participate and I just spread this big piece and everybody just not. Yeah. And I and I a first time I actually try that when I was, through New York City Arts and Educational Roundtable, I was invited to this artist salon at the races, in, in Brooklyn, gallery.

And, and I just did one spread. And I loved how it started, this communal conversation. And people were just nodding together. And then I taught one person, and then they continue, like, then they taught the others. And. Oh, and I just loved how it kind of like I didn't even have to, like, I was just watching and taking photos.

Oh, that's so great. And yeah, and it was it was really fun watching how people kind of took over the whole project. And then the conversation that, endured. And then they were, trying to figure out how to do it and, and then, and then I would finish the tapestry. So later. So I like the colors that people use.

I can only use them as, like color markers. Then how I like designed or made the tapestry finished. So wait, so take a step back. So when you do this do you bring the plastics with you or do you ask the people to bring the plastic. I always bring plastic. But for each venue I ask them to also donate or or I call it donate.

So I ask everybody to recycle, all because I want that to be part of the process. And I also I, I encourage to participants to bring their plastic and people often do and any, any leftover. So I take them home. Right. And then you have them all cut the pieces because I'm assuming there's a specific size strip that you need.

Yeah. So I, I do a lot of the cutting freehand. Pre venue event. Yeah, yeah. And so then there's enough plastic for everyone to tie then. Yeah. Yeah. And you can always cut more. Yeah. You can always cut more. Yeah. So that's cool. So then you let people do whatever. However not them color wise however they want.

Yeah. And then you look at it and add color how you see how your eye sees. Yeah okay. Yeah that's fascinating. But I always I use a lot of clear plastic because there's more, more clear plastic than it's hard to, like I don't have a storage where I could like okay, here I have all the blues and greens and yellows and reds, like, it's kind of hard to plan ahead with what colors.

So. But I always plan that there's sort of like this river of clear plastic. Clear or white. Yeah. Yeah. Well actually it takes on a look of a white plastic when there's so much clear plastic together. Yeah. So there is a tint of white in the clear plastic. Yeah. Yeah. No it's fascinating. It's like you're, you're riffing on whatever the participants did to finish the work.

I think there's something beautiful about that. Yeah.

of those pieces are actually connected because they are still from the, public art exhibition that I had, South Street Seaport.

Oh, yes. Yeah, that was the tower as well. That was a tower in that. Yeah, it was called Anxiety Tower. Okay. So I, I repurposed my tower project. And then I, I made it shorter, like, the original tower was like, almost 14ft. Oh, wow. And, so this was, it had to be, like less than ten feet for South Street Seaport.

So it was like around eight feet. And I, and then I just had lots of tapestries hanging on it, and most of them were very tight, tightly connected. Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, how long was that? That was, I think about two weeks. It was part of, with the Waterfront Alliance and the seaport. Seaport Museum and, and it was, during the, club, New York City climate.

We. Oh, perfect. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. So have you had these pieces outside for longer than two weeks, though? Yeah, I had, last summer, I had, it was called anxiety Flag. That was. Oh, yes, Inwood Hill Park. And it was like from April till July. And how did it hold up? After I did notice, like some plastics, they deteriorated.

So when I'm working on proposals, I went not like, actually, that's a good study piece. Yeah. To know like which plastics hold off, especially with the sunlight. Yeah. It's challenging. So I went on like studying. Like what? Plastics. Hold up, hold on, hold on longer. Yeah. No, it's it's something that I've gotten into too with some of my soft plastic installations.

You know, two months. I find three, maybe three months is kind of the limit after that. This, it starts to break down some of the the thicker plastics are usually fine. They might fade a little bit, but they're fine. But the really soft plastics really start to break down. Yeah, yeah. You have to be careful. I mean some of it is so tightly knotted that, like, the sunlight cannot hit, like the sort of the stem.

Yeah. So they like, hold on still, but like. Yeah, like the end pieces. No, I actually had I did an installation that was all plastic flowers and that was outside for two months. But it was interesting because I use some colorful plastic bags and the outside edges faded from the sunlight, but inside was deep, rich color. And they what they actually wanted.

This beautiful ombré effect. They looked lovely after they got sun bleached.

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's an interesting thing for me because I do a lot of I've been doing more and more of outdoor installations, and every time I do want I learned something else about how long something can be out there. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You want to be careful? Like. Yeah, I don't want to contribute to the problem.

Yeah, yeah. All the microplastic nano plastic. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

just to finish up, I wanted to ask what do you have on your schedule? What's ahead? What the or what are you working on now that's going to evolve into something else in the future?

Well, I have one exhibition right now happening in, Irvington Public Library. Oh, yes, I saw that. I want to get to see it. How long is it up? Till the end of the month. Okay. Probably the 30th or something. Like the 30th.

And then I recently start making these, it's I think it's a fruit project. A fruit project. Okay. Do tell. So I'm like, all these mesh bags. Yes, I am seeing the mesh bags. Yes. And you have a lovely arrangement on the shelf there.

I, I've kind of, like, also been thinking about, like, this Japanese kintsugi technique. I don't know if you know what that is, like, like ceramic when they have, like, pieces when it's broken. Yeah. Broken. And then they, they use this golden kind of like a glue material. I mean, it's not glue, but I don't have I don't know the technique exactly.

But then it's almost like the ceramic piece. It cuts this golden vein. Yes. New vein. And it's a beautiful. And exactly. And almost like they become more beautiful because now they have almost like this soulfulness to them. Yes. They have a character. Yeah, they have character. So I've thought about this mesh box, like we kind of rip them open.

Oh, to get to the for whatever, like the tangerines and mandarins and apples and oranges and and avocados and and I'm like, so I'm like, you've been mending them. I've been mending them. I love that I'm all about mending. Yes. So, so then I was thinking like, oh, so I have avocado, I have an orange. Yeah.

So I'm thinking maybe it's like the fruit project. It doesn't have, like, anything functional. Are you stuffing it with clear plastic? Is that what I'm seeing? Yeah, I'm just like, For now, I stuff them with clear plastic. To just that it's still experimental stage. It's the experimental stage? Yeah, yeah. Oh, interesting. And then I'm working on some proposals for public artworks.

So that's what I'm working on. But the proposal stuff is a lot of work, I know. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a whole other skill set. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's exciting, and I, I'm hoping that we could collaborate. I hope so too. I've been mending too. I've been mending plastic bottles. Yeah. That's right, I think I remember seeing you.

Yeah, yeah, that's still, a work in progress. Yeah. Yeah, maybe I'd love that. That's fascinating. Well, thank you so much. Sorry. Absolutely sorry. I can say your name correctly or close to correctly.

I have to ask one more question. Can you tell us about the Scoby project here? So I did, last spring, early summer, I did a workshop or residency at the School of Visual Arts, bio art residency.

And I learned this scoby process, and this is actually what I'm in made there, and and I made this, like, it was supposed to be sort of, I mean, the scoby process is very challenging. So I had, some I had of an idea for a hat that I wanted to make with scoby. Okay. So one second scoby is something that is a start to the fermentation process and that you can, like, make yogurt or other ferment and kombucha and whatever you cut.

So that's it's the base of what kombucha starts with. Yeah. But it can also be used for art. Yeah. Oh my god. Okay. So that paper like. Object that's also dried scoby. Yeah. So you can like roll it out or something. Yeah. And originally I wanted to make a like a big scoby and then cut it. But the process like there are just so many unexpected things that happen.

So. But then I was able to, like, scavenge like small pieces of scoby and I, like, you can see a little bit of outline. Oh, okay. So I pasted them together and I tried and that's how they dried. And originally was I wanted, one of my tapestries. I have this like, kind of like a poncho.

So, a like of a tapestry. I wanted that to have, like a hat. Oh. Okay. Sort of like, stick out of the, But it didn't work. The scoby I didn't have enough scoby. And so then it just kind of turned into, like, a color. And I, Yeah. So you going to get back to working with Scoby again?

I would like to. Yeah, yeah, it's sounds like a whole new, But it's also challenging, like, now when it's dried up, like it's falling apart. It's very fragile. Oh, wow. Yeah. Because when you first started talking about it and started saying that there was a piece layered on top of it, and that's how it dried like that made me think of pattern making, like for clothing.

So that could be interesting that you can cut pattern pieces and then sort of have them meld together. But then if it dries and is so delicate, then it will not be wearable. Yeah, I, I don't know, I think like when it's wearable it has to be sort of in the drying stage state. Oh. So before it's completely dry.

Yeah. Because it was, it was sort of flexible at certain point. But now it's complete like it's if I, if I pressed it, I give it to crumble. Crumble. Wow. Yeah. So it has like I have learned, it's kind of like lifespan a little bit like. Yeah. Like this piece has sort of. Yeah. Taught me about how this goopy kind of.

Yeah. That's. Yeah. That's fascinating. It's, and I did also because then I had like, exhibition there, I, I because I saw that they had a printed on scoby. Oh. So I decided to print some of my, my, landscape photos on the scoby and those actually came kind of nice, but I'm seeing, like, there are some, like, weird colorations, like, know when the scoby is drying.

Oh, interesting. And again, it's like very fragile. Those pieces are a little thicker. Like, this is very thin. So many experiments, so little time. Yeah, exactly. So many experiments. A little time. Wow. Well. That's fascinating. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's been delightful chatting with you as well. Thank you so much.

This podcast was created, produced and edited by Natalya Khorover. Theme music by RC Guide. To find out more about me, go to Art by natalya.com, to find out about my community go to Repurposer Collective.com and to learn with me, check out all my offerings at Eco Loop. Art. Thank you for listening.