Conversation with Christina Massey

Please enjoy my conversation with Christina Massey.

Christina Massey is an award-winning artist recognized for her innovative use of repurposed materials, particularly aluminum cans, in creating vibrant botanical abstractions. Her multidisciplinary practice spans sculpture, painting, and installation, exploring themes of environmental sustainability, consumer waste, and material transformation.

Christina creates botanically inspired installations, sculptural paintings, and glass works that explore the emotional landscape of climate change.

Using repurposed materials like aluminum craft beer cans, mesh produce bags, and discarded textiles, she transforms industrial waste into delicate, organic forms. This process challenges traditional notions of what is considered precious in sculpture while merging craft, sustainability, and contemporary art.

Christina’s work draws viewers into a space where beauty coexists with risk and unease—echoing how we experience our changing environment. Through these contrasts, she invites reflection on consumerism, environmental fragility, and the complex relationship between nature and human behavior.

https://www.cmasseyart.com/

https://ps122gallery.org/

https://artcake.org/

https://lmcc.net/lmcc-arts-center-at-governors-island/

https://www.cmasseyart.com/dance-collaboration-norte-maar-counterpointe12

https://www.bravinlee.com/current-exhibition

https://www.guerrapaint.com/

https://urbanglass.org/

https://www.brooklynartscouncil.org/

https://www.ayanaelizabeth.com/ Ayana Elizabeth Johnson

Dr.Johnsons book - What If We Get It Right? https://www.getitright.earth/

Dr.Johnsons podcast - What If We Get It Right? https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/what-if-we-get-it-right/id1773809532 

Dr. Kate Marvel https://www.marvelclimate.com/

https://www.instagram.com/woartblog/?hl=en 

This podcast was created by Natalya Khorover. It was produced and recorded by Natalya, as well as researched and edited by her. SALVAGE is a product of ECOLOOP.ART.

If you enjoy this show, please rate and review us wherever you’re listening—and be sure to come back for another conversation with a repurposed media artist.

Music theme by RC Guida

Visit Natalya’s website at www.artbynatalya.com

Visit Natalya’s community at www.repurposercollective.com

Visit Natalya’s workshops at https://www.ecoloop.art/

Transcript

Welcome to Salvage, a podcast for conversations with artists about the repurposed materials they use in their art practice.

Please enjoy my conversation with Christina Massey. Christina is an award winning artist recognized for her innovative use of repurposed materials, particularly aluminum cans, in creating vibrant botanical abstractions. Her multidisciplinary practice spans sculpture, painting, and installation, exploring themes of environmental sustainability, consumer waste, and material transformation. Christina creates botanically inspired installations, sculptural paintings, and glass works that explore the emotional landscape of climate change using repurposed materials like aluminum craft beer cans, mesh produce bags, and discarded textiles.

She transforms industrial waste into delicate organic forms. This process challenges the traditional notions of what is considered precious in sculpture, while merging craft, sustainability, and contemporary art. Christina's work draws viewers into a space where beauty coexists with risk and an ease, echoing how we experience our changing environment. Through these contrasts, she invites reflections on consumerism, environmental fragility, and the complex relationship between nature and human behavior.

Well, thank you so much, Christina, for agreeing to do this.

I'm like, I'm excited. I feel we've been talking about for a while. So everyone. Yeah, yeah. It's finally coming together, right? Well, you know, it gets in the way. Yeah. Yeah. Always great. So, yes. I'm so pleased to actually be doing a studio visit. I mean, wow. It's fun. I mean, I feel very lucky to be here, but,

Yeah, like I said earlier, it's a limited time. Yeah. So how did you get in the studio? How did that says through the PS 122. They did a call for artists once a year, and it's all at once. Several of them. I think there's 8 or 9 of us resident right now. Oh, wow. And it's. Yes, one year term, and I'm not quite sure the numbers.

I'm not sure how many people apply. What’s your ratio and chance. Okay. And I'm not sure. But I know there is a committee that goes through and selects the artists. And it's it seems like this year there's a lot of artists who come to mind painting with installation or sculpture or something. So I'm not sure if there's, like, beans on now because I'm not part of the process, but it's or that's kind of nicely worked out.

Okay. Probably a little bit of both. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. So you got you. You've been here for how long now? I moved in in August. Oh, okay. So just a little over a month. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. But I got it and started. I. Yeah. This is exciting. So. But the pieces that you have that are with these were already finished where you would, you know, have you done them since you've been there?

This is my finished these were part of... So as an artist in residence at Art Cake, this one here. Okay. Oh, right. That's in Brooklyn, right? That's in Brooklyn. So that was a two year residency and then ended up getting a big summer show, which is really fun. Which was July's during the summer show. Packing up to move, getting ready to move in here all at once.

And, I just had a studio visit. She might, take some of these pieces. So I had them up for her. Oh, okay. Okay. So what you have been doing here so far? I've been these experiments. Yeah. So I have two upcoming projects. One is definitely booked, and that will be a big outdoor collaborative installation project for Karin Bravin

And so that is what is behind me over here getting ready for that, because that will be October set. Oh, my God, that's very soon. Yes. And then there's one that's less concrete. It's great. I've worked with in the past, have approached me and asked that I'd be interested in potentially doing a large outdoor installation in kind of a more public setting.

Which is something I've been very interested in. I started doing some other work outdoors when I was a resident of Governor's Island. Okay. And I really loved how the work gets really activated at the moment. Yeah, I have tried that. But there's some parameters for that that I need to to push myself a little even further out of the comfort zone.

So something with the hospital they're celebrating, like the 25th anniversary of the children's hospital. So work has to also be scheduled. Oh, some. You have some sharp edges. There. Oh, okay. Yeah. This one was kind of like this in my hand. And a lot of people, it's like, in their head, they think, like, soup cans rather than, aluminum cans.

And they they think it's really sharp. But I love that there's a bit of a hesitation, because to me, that's kind of the the interesting thing about nature is we love it. It's gorgeous and beautiful because, you know, we just. So I love that there's that kind of duality in experiencing the world. But in reality, the actual intention is just kind of like the container.

That's awesome. But yeah. So, for that, it's kind of different. I’ll be exploring some different materials. And then the before. But, I don't know for sure that part is going to happen so we'll see. Okay. That's fine. Let's get experimenting. More coming into the studio. So I don't know much about aluminum, but does it rust.

In the outdoors. So I also paint the work. And it hasn’t been outdoors for a long installation that if you were to just, say, find aluminum can. And that's been outin the elements for a long time. Yeah, there's going to be that, material changes in the surfaces. I'm using a combination of a primer, acrylic, and a medium meant for non porous surfaces.

That's right. In the work and in my test and outdoors when I was curious, was, is that paint going to fall? Yeah. What's going to happen? And it stays, which is great. But I think if it were outdoors for a long period, I would just embrace and accept that it's changed. Right? Because I use the labels, which sometimes are stickers, sometimes they are printed directly on it.

So there's going to be an element. I know now I know from history. So my most of my work is from soft plastic is stitched and it can be outside for a month or two months depending on the thickness of the plastic, maybe even 3 or 4 months. Yeah, but the thinner the plastic, the faster. And then it starts breaking down.

Yeah. Forget the fading from the sunlight. Yeah, it happens almost instantly with the plastic itself. Stuff starts to break down like that. Okay. I don't want to add microplastics to the things. So I learned that the hard way. Now, I know my limitations. Yeah. But. So that's why I always think about any kind of repurposed material outdoors.

Like it'll last forever indoors, that's for sure. But outdoors, there's always worry about that. Yeah, and this could not be a permanent installation. This would be something for about six months. And I'm sure it would be just fine for that. Yeah. And if you're talking multiple years, I don't think a big public art, no foundation is necessarily going to want that because they have to think of the longevity of something.

Right? Even if it's steel and it's painted it has to be re painted every now. Oh, that's even more, I suppose. So, for those types of things, I don't think they would be particularly interesting, but, for short term outdoor installations, they do just fine. And, they have to look very cool because they're kind of interactive. Yes. Yeah.

Oh, that's one of the really cool. Yeah. Yeah. They have. So even when they're static, they have so much movement in them. And so I would imagine that if a breeze is moving it, it becomes like a whole becomes a alive. And I can see it. Sometimes I'll even try to install them if there's am a/c or something. Because it will activate it just a little bit.

And it's really funny because again, it plays in people's minds when they first see it. People get much harder metal or they need to paper. Yeah. And so when they see things moving, it starts to change their perception of what this material is. Oh, yeah. So I was once in an exhibit. I was working in fabric by that at that point.

And it was in the the gallery space was really large, and they had AC units, like up in the upper portion that the walls were like, I don't know, 20ft tall or something. And they hung my very delicate chiffon artwork right next to the vent. So when I came into the opening, it was literally blowing across the wall.

It was sideways. What? But that could really work well for you. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's, It's just you embrace and you're happy with this, but, yeah, this is not going to blow off the wall, but it will just start this little tiny other sort of like pulling. I don't even know what to call it. Kinetic, elements and the to it or something or like it's, I don't know, solar powered or electrical.

Just the power to make it move or something like that. It's not necessarily like that although I have thought about with seen happy accidents and so when I was at Art Cake the AC unit is nice started making them move. And then I was like, oh, now I got to figure out how to put fans in ceilings. And and even when I was on Governor's Island and testing, I had this outdoor porch area that I put a big hanging things to just see.

For instance, I for about three and a half months and see what was that and how much would it fade, how would it handle. And not only did we have insane storms come through that summer, but a gutter got clogged. Oh no. Waterfalls started pouring right over it. But by the way, which was so cool right? And it started videos up.

I have videos and it starts flapping all around. And that was like man that I learned how to play with water, you know? So I love the idea. Yeah. Nature moving in some way. I'm not so sure. I, about mechanical way movement. That’s not how my brain work, I guess, but I think there's certain things about movement with my work that I've been very interested in.

Especially since last year I got to do that dance. Yeah. How did that come about? So that they just emailed me one day. I know that choreographers can submit ideas. And I think I think this is how they work. I think they get kind of recommendations of artists. And then they end up pairing them with a choreagrapher.

Oh, so this was a specific artist choreographer pairing thing. Yeah.So it’s called Nortemar And they're a dance studio. And once a year they do what they call counterpoint, and it's kind of like one, two, three, 4 or 5, whatever year it is. So mine was 12 and, yeah, just got an email one day. Would you like to participate?

And it's, really fast a couple weeks later. Oh, they email you, this is your choreographer and somebody you’ve never met before. You have basically two months to create a brand new collaboration. And you have to source the music you take the help. They have a lighting technicians They know how to do the lights that you work with them to figure out the timing.

And the cues get it together. Costumes all yourselves. And different artists have all sorts of different approaches to go through it. It's really fun. And I just asked my choreographer who was fantastic Juliet. Rafael and I said to me, the performances in the past, I really love when the dancers arent just dancing around with the work, but like through and with, and activating the work in some way.

And she just took that idea that I can create. Fun to. I mean, they really turned the sculptures into dance partners, and that's not at all like it is a passive thing on the stage. I love it. So that was really fun. And then you have them on rolling racks. Yeah. Okay. So, you have a very small budget is all there is, a nonprofit organization.

So is that in her budget? This is what I can do. Would you rather me put them on coat racks Or. The other idea was those IV bags. Oh, yeah. This is this is like, I think we could do more choreography wise with the coat racks, Great and I can still use them. I see them in your studio now you now?

Yeah. So tI essentially created aluminum weavings that, we're all kinda blue and green tone on one side and then like browns, reds on the other side. And so there is this moment of reveal and seeing kind of like a lot of the inspiration, behind the work of the choreography was in a lot of my work in general is just kind of how we experience climate change.

And sometimes, Living through it can be confusing sometimes, like for me as a California girl, I like 85 degree weather, you know, even though part of me is my head is like the cooler. But I. And so there's that context of like, okay, but I'm enjoying this, but I know it's wrong. And or you know, when you just see an incredibly beautiful sunset, I can't help but like, it's beautiful.

But then there's that part of your brain that also goes over what is causing that. Yeah. You know, and there had been this moment in New York, if you remember. Now this is more like last year. There was a fire in Prospect Park. And right around the same time have the orange skies from the fires in Canada. yes, and it was interesting to me because, I mean I ‘m from California, I have had so many near-misses with friends and family and fires, but to me that wasn't a foreign concept.

And I knew we were in drought. But most of my New York friends had no idea Yeah, they are in a drought. And so that became a real inspiration for the choreography. So she would have the dancers kind of, pause and look up and kind of like, is it? They're thinking like, when was the last time that it rained and and so then the work, the kind of fluctuated between these very dry and wet seasons and how cool it was.

Like, is there a video of this online? Yes. Oh, good. You have to send me links included in the show notes. Sure. Yeah. That would be very cool to say no. All right. So let me take you back. So you mentioned California. So you grew up in California? Yeah. Were you an artistic kid? Yes. And as much as, you know, I could be I suppose.

I didn't grow up. In an area that necessarily had any access to arts. So. But, you know, my mom and her mom, definitely had artistic talent and was my mom could have had a whole career in design that she had wanted. And, she was a nurse, but she always had a wonderful eye especially like interior design and so just kind of esthetics were a part of growing up.

But, there wasn't even, like a local arts center. Oh, wow. And there wasn't even real art class until about high school. Before that, it was until the most creative classes I could announce was like woodshop or, you know, photography was really like yearbook class, you know, and I would take those type of classes, but they didn't really have an art class.

So I'm interested in high school. But despite what and it's just something I enjoy and, even start getting hired to do murals or portraits of people's kids and things. I was young, I was like 14. Oh my gosh, this isn't part of my life But, I wouldn't say it's actually really introduced to what the art world is.

Just barely in high school. Thankfully, my teacher seemed to recognize that there. You know, I have a passion for this, and she kind of would create field trips to go to San Francisco, that was my first time going to a museum. Oh, wow. And just those were really special moments . But even through college is still, I would say, a real learning curve compared to kids that just grew up here.

And their access to the arts is unparalleled, you know, so it took me a long time to kind of get to understand that was what, you know, sometimes I'm not so sure now. Yeah. So it was something I wanted. I knew I wanted, but I didn't have any introduction. What's more doing that. Now. So what, did you go to study in school?

I did go to study art. And I went to local art school, in Northern California. And I was like, they gave me a scholarship so I'm going to go. And I think it was, you know, I was I was jealous of those kids that got to go to the, you know, art schools. But that was just so far out of my feasibility and that, looking back, I had exactly what I needed because I had courses with professors where the courses was, usually 11in one.

And I also had a lot of attention, a lot of attention. And, and really good program considering, you know, it's, it's not one of these big schools, but just access to studio space There's access to all the materials, access to the staff. Much better than, you know, I've gone on tours at Yale, they don't have the same type of stuff , you know, so sometimes, you know, they might have the big name, but, you know, if you're just barely getting your toe in there and getting that attention was probably more important.

So what was your focus? So they did make me choose a focus And I chose painting, just seemed that that's what I was supposed to do . I had just had more exposure to that than I had anything else, you know? But they did require you to take so many courses that you ended up taking just about as many, other courses.

So I took tons of printmaking classes in different ceramic classes. Every painting, every drawing class you could possibly take. But, the only ones that I didn't get to take, which I wish. If I could go back, I would have taken. There's two sculpture classes. Oh, I would have loved to take in and they had a glass blowing program. how cool.

But with the irony of that was That was such a popular class. But a lot of art students didn’t get into it. a lot of kids of other majors that got i nto it. into glassblowing? Yeah. Oh yeah, it was there I know. So I did actually meet and I ended up using glass later in my work. I didn't get to do it.

when I was there. So what kind of paintings were you painting? The earliest work was very inspired by the environment. You know, really, like, late nineties. There was this transition of the digital age. And, to me, it felt like it was disconnecting us from nature. So the paintings were kind of like starting to be pixelated and would be kind of, a landscapeesque

with this pixelation , and then there's usually a figurative element that is being trapped between, and that was kind of what I did for a long time. And then 911 happened my last year of school. Somehow that seems completely unimportant to do that work anymore, even though I was on the opposite side of the country and I wasn't having.

I'd never even been to New York at that point. Oh, wow. But actually no wait. I had been to New York. No, I been to New York once

Yeah, it was the winter before, but I never really spent a huge amount of time there. But, yeah, then my art completely changed for a few years, and it became very, fleshy tones. That almost had been kind of injured by bruises and things like that. Oh, now I’m forgetting his name. There's an artist who. I think Byron Kim, does sound like a familiar name.

He ended up doing paintings that look almost exactly like my paintings oh, my gosh, my BFA show, like 15 years later. But, he also didn't take it from me. There is no way you he could have known I'd done it, but, like, just ironic that it looked almost exactly the same. And, yeah, I think it was just me dealing with this turbulence that was in the world at the time, and and finding a way to make it personal.

You know, if there was a lot of rhetoric at the time of that painting is dead. And so that was kind of my inspiration as I got into paintings and per se, but perhaps intrigued by that rhetoric. And so but the rhetoric that sounds like a title.

Sounds like it is still healing. But, and it suffered injuries So I did that for my BFA show and moved to New York right after, and then eventually transitioned into this. Okay. So two questions. First, what brought you to New York? I always wanted to come here I mean this is art capital, right. You know, I was on a very tight budget for college, so going to school in big City was not gonna work.

And so from going to school out of state is not going to work. So, as soon as I could, I literally packed up two bags and one was full of all the art supplies that I had , and one was just like a tiny bit of clothes and a towel. But, you know, and I moved.

Did you know anybody here? And you know it, I did everything wrong. Oh, my. I knew no body, I didn't have a job. I had no money. You know, I did everything you're not supposed to do, but, I was just going to make it work. It's really, you know, I was less than a year after nine eleven, so. Yeah, that's crazy, but, my God, but you know, the sentiment at the time was just kind of like, don't let this event change your life and you to let change your plan.

So this is you've been planning this for quite a while, then. Well, I knew I knew I wanted to move to New York. I knew I couldn't afford to go to school in New York as soon as I graduated, the plan was to move, but of course, 911 happened once at the very beginning of my last year of school. And so there was some kind of like, this is what I should be doing.

But yeah, that was that's the sentiment is don't let this change your plan. Yes. And, you know, that's our way is fighting back in a way, is just to live your life. Absolutely. Which is, you know, I get it, you know, but it was also a little naive to when I came here. I just had no idea the little ways that would affect my ability to even get a minimum wage job.

Like I was competing against people who had decided to quit Wall Street and were just like, I'm going to have a dumb job.I don't care. And I was like, why do I have to compete with this person for this little job? Like, this would be someone who just got out of college. Oh my gosh. Wow. And so I ended up just getting like a little like I didn't like retail windows and stuff, but, yeah, it would be coworkers who literally worked on Wall Street for ten years.

Wow. Had been lawyers or had worked in the towers, you know, and all the finance people. And they're just like, screw this. I don't want to be anywhere near downtown anymore. I don't want anything to do with that life anymore. And just wanted a chill job. And I this is like, this is like an insanely competitive job.

That's crazy. And of course, most of those people probably have some good savings. So they have any they didn't get it for the money, they just wanted it for something to do and did. I think a lot of them are dealing with post-traumatic stress, and to keep their minds busy. But, yeah. Yeah, I was just like, I just need to pay my rent.

Yeah. See, I don't know any of this because right after 911 happened, I literally left the job market. Yeah. When I found out I was pregnant with my first child and I was like, okay, well, I don't have to. And luckily I didn't have to. Yeah, I don't yeah, I wanted to stay home with my kids, but.

So I don't know any of this. Like, you realize that all those people from high powered jobs were competing for the little jobs here, you know, and I was like, you know, I was not like, oh, I was just worked at like a museum or a gallery. And I get a little bit naive because I was coming from a little town, you know, I didn't know that most of those jobs went to, you know, people of higher economic status, like, because they don't pay a lot.

And also the galleries needed that relationship connections to collectors that I couldn't provide, you know. So, yeah, it is. There's a little learning curve, as I like to call my first couple of years in NY my hazing.

Wow. So what was I I'm skipping. I'll push my second question further. So what was your first art job? Oh, well, I mean, it's still artsy doing the windows. Yes definitely.

But that was tough work. You often worked overnight. And that allowed me to then work on my art during the day. No sleeping required. you're 20 something. Yeah. who needs sleep. Now, I couldn't do anything like that, but, And you think so? That's it. Yeah. I had a little bit of bad timing for that, because it went into the job market with the 911 thing, and then shortly after we had the recession, and at that point, I was in the interior design world, got laid off from there.

And then I ended up working for a couple who were like an artist and actor and, that was just a part time job, but it was perfect. And, and they were so supportive of my art career. And I've ever needed time to do anything. They always gave it to me and let me just buy their car if I needed to schlep to a show or, and it was such an introduction to what people who've been doing this and creating and building their careers from scratch.

Also, you know, they weren't born into it and they had to work their way up to where they were. Since, you know, the 80s and exposure to that world was crucial. It’s a whole education on it’s own. Yeah. And they they were friends with all kinds of artists and poets and actors and directors and, you know, all these people who were making a living off of their creative entertainment, you know, whether it was from dance to directing to paintings, whatever it was.

So that was definitely kind of the first real introduction to, not just people like myself who were just like kids just out of college trying to make it, but like actual adults who, like, you know, they and doing this for 20 years and, and how they can do that work. It's, Yeah. Yeah, I think that's important, I think we should do a college course, in that actually.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I didn't go to college for art, I have a BFA, but I went for fashion design. So there they do talk to you about who you could work for. And you know, there's internship and actual working companies and all of that. But from what I understand, you're getting a painting degree. You're not getting any business experience or business exposure.

But, you know, and I know a lot of schools, especially in New York, they do, help a lot of artists get jobs with artists as an assistant . That's good. But I do think, yeah, that definitely helps. But if you're not in that little center and world and, trying to break into that it’s nearly impossible.

Yeah. Because they tend to always just go to the wherever they may work or to school themselves, they're not looking necessarily for the right person for the job, but just easiest. Yeah. Contact to get the person right. And it's also, you know, I think like most industries like that, it's kind of insular. Yeah. Because I spent a lot of time in the film industry and it was totally who you know.

Yeah. That's how you get your next job. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. I guess I did it all wrong. Well, clearly you're doing something right because you are in this wonderful studio. Amazing work and amazing shows. Thank you. Yeah. And you got the Pollock/Krasner fellowship. That's amazing. Congratulations. Yeah. What year was that? 23. It's a couple of years.

Yeah, yeah. And how does that I. I don't even know how how it works. You submit body work or do you submit a project that you want to work on? So like a lot of these grants, they're a little bit vague in their descriptions, and I have known people who have gotten the Pollock and had more of a particular project, and some people, like myself, was more describing my situation why I needed this grant at this time.

So there's no nothing on the website anywhere that tells you, like, one way or another. What I can do is just a matter of making that case for yourself. So you do submit, a body of work. You submit kind of like a letter of introduction of. Why is it that you're applying for the grant? And then you just hope

They don't give you any feedback necessarily narrative like this is why we chose you, so it to a bit of a mystery, but, so incredibly grateful. Yeah, yeah. That's wonderful. Yeah, yeah. So. All right, so the question I was going to ask before was how did you transition from strictly painting? I assume one canvas to cans, soda and beer cans.

And you like, how did that happen? So imagine work like this. But it’s all cut up. Canvases are linen, you know, like. So I started to, like I said, I had a hazing period, right. And that included changing jobs a million times. So having to move a whole bunch of times, tough winters, like everything, like I had to deal with, but in that having to constantly roll up canvasses to move, they really became more just like fabric to me than a painting per say.

Oh, interesting. And I knew I didn't want to forever be working in this kind of bruised content. So I started cutting them up, and I would weave them and turn them into paintings that were these woven, paintings on the wall, but also installations that would hang from the ceiling, but inevitably what will happen is it's going to droop, change form.

and it gets very heavy. I think using that much material and so I had this opportunity to do this residency in the middle of nowhere in Pennsylvania. And, I was at one of those points, you know how sometimes you get to this point in your practice .. I feel like I’m stuck. Yeah. I need to do something different. And at the time, I felt like I was all the shows that were getting offered were all fiber arts.

Oh, interesting. And, I love fiber arts, but as I, I don't think I'm actually a fiber artist. That didn't that didn't seem to resonate with me. And I was like, how can I do what I'm doing, but have it be the opposite of fiber arts? Okay. Let's use this residency as an opportunity to just push myself to do something different.

I wanted it to be material that I could get easily. This is so far out there that, like, even if you needed to order from Amazon, it's going to take, like, at least a week to get there. And it's only a four week residency. Okay. And these cans, were just in my view. And then they were so beautiful.

And, I remember playing around with cans long time ago. My sister's an architect, and I guess, like, they often would do the cans even in architecture school, they would use it to create little models. Oh, interesting. And so we used to sometimes kind of sending each other, like, funny letters and things. And sometimes using the cans and stuff into these memories were coming up in this.

I think I ‘m gonna try using these cans. I don't know what I can do with them. I'm gonna try it. Okay, so I just took those four weeks to play with and experiment and get used to this material and fell in love with it, the original, pieces were more of a mix of aluminum with canvas or paper and things that was more of, you know, I was discovering how to use this material.

And then it started to really take over my practice, really with the residency in Governor's Island, because with that one, you have to be able to physically carry everything you need there. Oh, right. And on that little tiny ferry, I'm literally on the little boat. Yep. And same when you leaving the island, everything's that you’ve made you have to be able to carry off on the ferry.

And so I started thinking of how could I use, and they gave me a ton of space. I like three rooms that, how can I use the architecture of this old house as like kind of the framework architecture that I might use, like there's a frame behind the pieces. It's kind of like painting base or just using the door frame as that frame and then I could create these aluminum weavings.

I could use that as the form if you will, right, as well as a substrate. And, so it's just making weavings and weavings after weavings. And they would just sort be piling up and growing kind of this organic thing out of the staircase or something, you know. And then when I was done, I had to roll it all up and come back to the studio and, just kind of opened up my brain on that.

No, I don't I don't have to be married to a canvas. I can do the painting without any canvas being involved. That's right. Yeah. So you paint on them, but not all of them because I see some, you know, can graphics on some of them. Yeah. It's a bit of a like a collaboration with the can if you will.

So I like weaving little words and barcodes and things that for people to be able to have that discovery of, oh, this is an object of consumption, without necessarily knowing the brand name. Okay. I don't like to use the, the big name brands. There's no cocacola. There's no Budweiser or anything like. So Brooklyn Brewery, they're probably the only thing that I recognize.

But like those words. Even if somebody doesn’t know Brooklyn Brewery. They might be recognize Brooklyn. Yeah. I do like that because I've been telling a story again about my relationship to the word. Yeah. And part of the, You know I use all craft beer cans, and that's partially because I like the idea is that they are small businesses, there’s the economic, not the environmental aspect of shopping local.

They are actually incredibly environmentally sustainable businesses. Most of them partner with the farms and with their waste goes to enrich the soil. And then they get the grain and it's well, it's circular in that way. I didn't know that. It's very cool. Yeah, yeah. And, so anyhow, like, the cans will be painted with this idea of allowing a bit of discovery, but also acknowledging that to me, this is a painting.

It's not, sculpture. Oh, okay. There's, Yeah. Things I want people to find in there that certain words that might relate to the environment more or perhaps the different social work, things that are happening in the world at that time. Okay. So if I was to see this spend, spend some time and I found a few words here and there, get more of an idea even if I didn’t know the title of the work.

That's very cool. So then you paint sometimes, the outside of the can. Yeah. And on the inside as well. Yeah. So I'll start with the process of collecting the can. So I thankfully have a group of people who are very happy to collect cans for me, that's also quite thing. But, otherwise you're consuming a lot of craft beer.

I have a lot of help there. So I'm very happy volunteers. But, yeah, they have to be washed out, cut open. I tend to kind of gather around, but general color tones, and I weave them with wire. And paint the backs first usually. And as I was saying over here, this is kind of the beginning structural process is I'll start to this is just pinned on the wall as I'm kind of figuring out the tonal shifts.

And so is that painted already? No, it's not in there. So those are the colors of the cans. Those are the color of the cans. But as I start to put something like that together, I'll be going, okay. Because I think it's almost like brush strokes. Right? So some of them I want to be big gestural and some tight.

And so, okay, I really need some tighter marks or some bigger loopier marks or we need this shift to kind of go from this tone to this tone. And I'll start creating the weavings specifically to kind of fill those voids. And then once I’m there I then start to secure the actual structure. So whether it's like this will be an installation that's meant to just kind of roll up, I have to bring it up to Harlem and it just like Governors Island.

I and then able to roll back out of this or if it's going to, let's say a gallery, it needs to have that more kind of like a finalized structure that'll be on a canvas frame. And then once it's structure is set, then I go through and paint, And is that acrylic paint? It's kind of a combination of like a primer, acrylic and as a medium meant for non porous surfaces.

So wait, you're mixing the paint and the primer together, or you're putting the primer on the first? Well for the back I’ll put the primer, I’ll tint it. I use a lot of the, do you know them? Guerra. Nope. So, I don't use paint much. So it's pigment, so you can put the pigment in anything that will bind it.

Okay. And, so I'll tint the primer so that that's already got a tone to it. And then as I’m painting the front I’ll also mix just a little bit of primer with the, the mediums and the acrylic, because it helps it bind on that surface better. So but do you ever, like, scratch up the cans with sandpaper or something like that? No.

It holds up just fine, even in the rain. That's amazing now, but these are they're a small, artist owned, family owned business. And they're really wonderful company. And I, I try to get all my paint secondhand if possible. So I happen to have inherited just tons of this stuff, and it's incredible. Oh. That's awesome.

Wow. That's what it allows you to do to really have complete control over the tone and saturation rather than, pre done tube you have so much more control of like, what's the actual tone, the saturation of that pigment that you want. So like painter painters absolutely love them. Okay, good to know. Yeah. I don't, I don't think I'm going to, you know, be intending to paint.

Yeah. But I’ll be sure to take a picture. Wow. Very cool. So they're held by a wire? Yeah. But then what is the wire that gets crimped or something? Or is there more screws or nails or something keeping it together? If its something like this. So there is a, like a chicken wire and, some structure, and then a canvas structure. So the size gets stapled in, but there's just multiple points of connection.

So that kind of sensory, form. But yeah. Otherwise, I mean, they're pretty resilient. you can throw that thing around. Well, that's a good thing, to know? And they don’t look like that way. But you can just lie down into it. Really nice. You get. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That was one of my question that was like, is it sharp, but no it's not.

So now I want to pet it. okay.You can touch it. okay. All right. So let me look at my notes because I've been just asking you without any looking at my notes. But I thought I did make notes. So for. Oh glassblowing how did that happen. You know how sometimes, like literally the stars and everything just aligns. A friend of mine from California had got to take the glass blowing classes

Was in NY, but hadn't really told anyone. So I happened to be to drop off an artwork near Times Square. Which is why is anyone ever near Times Square, I don't know, I get this group text and she said, I am near Times Square, this hotel. I have time just to meet for a little bit. There happened to be a solar eclipse happening.

Oh, she's like, I have time to meet for lunch if anyone's available, and then we’re gonna watch the solar eclipse. And then I have to take a flight out. Well. But she came for the solar eclipse. She's here for, work. Oh. And it happened to be happening, so I was like, whoa, what are the chances?

And so I go, to meet her and only one other person, met her who was also a glass blower. At the time. I was struggling. I knew in my head what I wanted to do, but all my tests were failing and. Wait tests with what? I was trying. Plastics, I was trying. Were you doing this weaving of the cans already at that point or not?

I was, but it was in the portion where it was combined with canvas and paper. So it was in that part of my career, the same residency where I started using the aluminum. But, when I got out there, it was an area that did fracking, which I did not know. And so whole house would smell of gas, the water smelled like gas.

I had to shower in it. Oh how awful. The gas company would like, bring the spring water out to the residents. And so you would have to just go, fill a big tub of water to drink and cook with, brush your teeth with that, wow, all that kind of stuff. And it started having this idea in my head, I was like, what are long term effects?

of this gas in the ground? And I had this vision of like, you know, kind of this bulbous form in a plant like form, but I couldn't figure out how to make that bulb form using like found objects as literally using light bulbs kind of figure out like I but I couldn't it's nothing was working. And so here I am at this lunch two glass blowers and they're asking what am I doing in the studio and I'm describing that's so I'm trying to do but it's not working.

And the guy goes, you’re literally describing the class I'm going to be teaching this winter. And he's like, what you need to do is glassblowing. But it's through these copper cages that's like, it's the form that I'm talking about. And it's like, oh, okay, well how do I do that? He's like, here, we have a scholarship program you can apply to.

He's like, they'll love you. They're going to give you the scholarship. Just apply and come take my class. So that's what I did. And where was this class? Urban Glass. Oh I've heard of it. Is that in New York? Yeah it;s in Brooklyn. Oh, okay. And it was so much fun. I was easily the least experienced person in the class.

And so the assistant of the class, said I’m just going to help you. I think he was also excited that I wasn't just wanting to make mugs, you know, that I was trying to do something more artistic it appealed to him. And he at the end of the course was like if you want to keep doing this and work with me, I’ll be able to help you do what you want to do.

Just let me know. And I was thinking, you know, like, give me some details. Like, how much is that cost? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he kind of gave me a, basic and like, okay, this is what, my time would cost . This is what studio rental costs and ok, great. That's a lot. I have to get a grant.

As I wrote for, Brooklyn Arts Council, a grant proposal, which thankfully I got. Yeah. And, so that allowed me to work with him in the year 2019. And they have a wonderful program there with exhibition space that was originally planning to exhibit in 2020. So I like to say 2019 comma. Yes, I mean, 22. And then, when I finally got to the exhibit in that space and I had having to get like a of the grants have a time period to so I had to get a second grant and the Brooklyn Arts council allowed me to go back into the studio.

But what was very funny, was that one of the hardest things for me in glassblowing was very first bubble, when you're just trying to get a little air bubble into the glass so that you can then expand it and then air power was something it was very challenging for me. So your lungs have to be very strong.

You have to do it I did it, I don't have loudest voice in the world so it’s probably not too shocking that was hard for me. And the rest of it, like, you know, I love the rest of it. I the material is is weird. Glass is weird, it's so weird, like, it's it's like. It's like. I mean, that's been in the air for too long, but, like, if you can't touch it, you know, and it sone second goes too long.

And also, it's fragile, you know, where, but it's so much fun. And so that through that allowed me with Covid, like how am I going to do this and work towards something. And whenever Covid ends at that point. So my Covid projects became stripping a bunch of old cable wires for the copper and making all the copper forms, so that when I was able to go back into the studio to try and blow those glass forms,, I will be already.

And the irony is that after Covid or kind of in those early years, you know, rather than blowing to create that hole, you now use compressed air. I was as you were waiting was I was asked I was going to think like, can you blow some air? And what do you have to use your lungs?

Clearly, for thousands of years, this is how they did it Yeah. And then of course, this is so much easier. Why didn’t anyone think of this?

Because no one wants to share mouth thing, like know what's going on. Right. And of course, who’s there who's an amazing, he knows how to do it with some people can just have this little tube and loads air into that, and he can do that all by himself, you know, because he's got like 20 years experience.

Yeah, I have one. and a half. And it so that it's really fun. We use the what's called the second grade class, which is all the old projects that have been broken down and melted again. So the glass has some imperfections, but that's I like the imperfections. And, I think true glass artists like to have a pristine glass, which is a very different thing than what I'm doing.

Right. But once I have that glass form, sometimes I will create a design like it's sandblasted onto the surface sometimes, I’ll just leave it clear. And those designs are have kind of a zig zaggy motion to them. Which to me is a bit of an again, the aspect of living through climate change that can be very confusing.

So where we're constantly trying to measure what's happening and it always is breaking records. So that's kind of when you think things are going this way. You’ll get a zag this way. Yeah. And, so they're meant to they look like patterns, but they're not really. But and they kind of distort the views. And then when you're looking inside, there's a bit of that visible aspect of trying to predict what's gonna happen when and a bit confusing.

So yeah, a lot of people ask, what is that, that zigzag motion. But that's what that comes from. okay. I thought it was just a pretty design. And they are, they look like some kind of an exotic bloom that you might find in the Amazon or something. Yeah, they're meant to be very biomorphic and, feel, like, they could have come off the earth, but you've never actually seen them.

We know that is kind of the surreal, futuristic kind of aspect of, again, like all the things that you're putting into nature. And eventually going to do something and that's a wonderful thing about natures and finds a way to be resilient, incredibly diverse. But sometimes it's a little weird you know, I was just, I, I've been hearing this more and more and I've come to kind of believe this.

You know, when we talk about climate change, we talk about protecting the planet. There's no planet B and all of that. And yes, I totally agree with that. But at the same time, the planet will survive. It will evolve. Yeah. After us, it will survive. It'll be something else. But it's us who we have to protect on this planet, because we're the ones who are not going to make it.

Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. I know. Yeah. Nature. It's, not going anywhere. I mean, the, although it like the tones of this one, for example. I keep pointing to it, It just happens to be here. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, it kind of transitions the blacks and browns and yellows in to some greens on the other side. And that’s Recovery. Because that's what happens after a big fire

Nature tends to it. It bounces back you know it regrows. And, and there's a real beauty in that. This you, you know, sometimes, you know, there's certain trees. And when I grew up, there would be this big fires, but certain trees don't actually replant unless there is a fire. Right. So it's like nature has been built in

Right. Well, like, I think I remember reading about this a long time ago, but I'm sure it's that there are more. But yeah, it's you because we've suppressed so many fires. It screws up the trees replanting themselves. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that and more fires. Yeah. They're out of control. It. Yeah. And they just get so much bigger and so much hotter than they ever used to.

But, yeah, nature kind of has these backup plans and it's much smarter than us. Yeah.

Yeah. But yeah, the the glass kind of came out of like, well, what is nature's plan for all this extra gas? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I've been, I do daily walks and these suburban woods that are surrounded by major highways and there's so much trash to pick up, but I make sure that I'm. When I'm on these walks, that's where I definitely pick up trash.

I don't always pick up trash from out, you know, on the street, because it could be overwhelming. You have to carry garbage bags everywhere that I’m going where I go? But I pick up the trash on these walks and I pick up a lot of plastic, plastic water bottles. But I also pick up shards of glass and they're all different kinds of glass.

I think that the reason I'm picking up this, these shards of glass, is that there's a lot of young people drinking in the woods happening. Yeah, that's I don't go there at night, so I don't know. But that is my suspicion because sometimes I find full you know, like bottles. Yeah. And a lot of but a lot of times I find these shards and I first I started picking them up because I'm like, you know, my dog is going to hurt his paws.

Yeah. And now I'm like, oh, look at the pretty colors. Yeah. So I have been saving all these glass shards and I'm not sure what I'm going to do with them yet, but I was recently talking to another artist who has been melting glass shards, and I didn't know that you couldn't mix glass like, it's sort of like plastic recycling.

You can't miss mixed the number ones with the number sevens or whatever, because that just becomes a bad product. But I didn't know that was so about glass as well. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you’re bringing me back to my childhood, like, we, I mean, we would collect all kinds of aluminum and glass and, and bring it to the recycling center and get money for it.

Yeah. Know, my parents and I or my dad. I remember always being like, that's like finding money on the ground, you know, and, but, yeah, you always have to separate everything brown bottles clear green. The aluminum can largely go into one thing, but I have to separate everything. I do know some artists who, have kilns and they fuze glass, and it's a bit of a trial and error.

And so there's a lot of found like they will find. A a vintage beaker and something. And they just kind of see what happens to fuze, in what works. So I think there's a bit of a trial and error with that. But yeah, if you wanted to completely melt to say then reform. Yeah. Then yeah, the glass gets a little higher.

That's why I say I also learn sorry, sharing things that I learned recently. But the glaze on ceramics that is essentially glass too. Yeah. Nobody has ever explained this to me until this artist this weekend was showing me her little fish and she was like explaining the glaze and she's like it’s essentially glass. mind blown what. I know and is glass is very interesting too.

It’s essentially from sand. Yeah. And that's a whole another environmental concerns. Yeah. Like where are they getting the center for this glass? Well that’s starting to be a problem. Yeah. It's it's it's a complicated, like, everything complicated material. And part of, you know, what I love about the aluminum, too, is that it's one of the easiest to recycle materials. But a huge part of the United States just don't have enough facilities to sort.

And so, I read this article recently I don;t remember where it was on, something like this, eight hundred million dollars a year. It was not recycled because it just in whatever towns they don't have the facilities to be able to sort of wow. Which to me and like why or why is the government going through and laying off all these people that say dont probably cost them money?

I know when you build a couple facilities, you know, it seems like a much better investment. Definitely. Like, yeah, yeah. No. Yeah, it's totally crazy. I've been listening to this podcast. You know who doctor Ayana Elizabeth Johnson is ?. Oh my God, you need to look her up. She wrote a book called, Oh my God, I’m blanking.

Like, she wrote several books, but the one she has last, is it? How come I'm blanking out? But it's something like, can can it be saved? Oh my God... Totally. That's embarrassing that I'm blanking out. I was just listening to her podcast on the way over. Yeah, I'm. I'm more of a visual learner. Like, I need to see it.

And then I'm like, oh, yes, I know this, but, but anyhow, she has this podcast, and she was I was listening on the way in. She was interviewing Doctor Kate Marvel. It's that a great name. Who is a scientist that does like modeling, but it's completely stuff that I cannot even comprehend. But it's fascinating to listen.

But she was talking about exactly that. Like, if we, instead of spending money, you know, doing something that has nothing to do with anything, if we invested in the infrastructure of our own country, would be so much better off, and we do better for climate change as well. You know, and here we are. But here New York Climate Week and yes, it's not.

Yes. Yeah. We don't need to go into that. No, we don't need to go. So I actually don't even know what time it is. It is okay do you have a little more time ? Sure. If you do. So I just have a couple more questions. Oh, I wrote down a you were using enamel paint on some of these or that in the past, but not some way you working on it when I was still testing out

Now what would go on the surface? Oh, there was just paint that was meant for metal. Okay. So I'm thinking about the that long term. Like, would it rust What will adhere to it? I was kind of testing things out. It's like cool. And tell me about I'm not sure if we're going to pronounce it correctly. Wo art or w o art.

WO art. So. Wo is supposed to be for women or that sound like whoa, oh, okay. And I started it kind of around 2016 ish, around the MeToo time and my way to just support other women artists and, originally it started with me interviewing other artists, as kind of like a blog format, but, I found that challenging for a lot of reasons.

And I basically transferred it to an Instagram, which gave me more freedom, ability to feature artists who didn't speak English. And just it was easier to navigate with my own time. So, essentially it's just featuring artists who I loved and felt like it's recognition in some way. And it still exists, as in that form on Instagram.

Now I've changed. At first it was I was doing a lot more storytelling with it. Since it was Climate Week, I would be featuring all artists, you know, addressing issues of the climate. And, or if I was having a haircut that day, I look for an artist to work with hair. Okay. Like it was all kind of like a narrative, like a visual blog in that way.

The last couple years, I've been too busy to give that as much attention to it as I would like. So it's largely been more like this is shows that I've seen and I love and I want to share with people, but, there's always in the back of my head. So I liked it because there's something really fun about just the surprise feature you know, when, you get to provide that moment for somebody that they were not expecting.

Yeah. Like, there were so many times that I would share someone's work and, you know, for whatever reason, whatever it was that day. And I would get a DM like this, I need this right now. There's no oh, no, that's beautiful. And, so I love doing that. It really creates a beautiful community. The support network.

kind of female artists out there, but yes. So it's still in my head. I'd like to kind of return a little bit to that narrative form, I just need any, like. a team like it's so. A team and sponsorship. Yeah. It's. I'm sure you're do too. Yeah. Oh, I desperately need some sponsorship for this podcast. That's.

We'll get you there. Okay? Yeah. Okay. All right, I'm going to ask one final question. And I always have trouble just how to phrase this, so because your arts artist statement says you want to invite a reflection on consumerism and environmental fragility, complex relationships between nature and human behavior, what do you think is an artist's role at the time that we're living in now, especially as far as the climate crisis is concerned?

I think artists in general right now, like this feeling I get from a lot of artists in general, is that there will come a rough time. There's so much going on and people are feeling overwhelmed by politics, by environments and by all these other things. It's like, am I doing enough? Is definitely a feeling that I've heard from a lot of people.

Or in they feel, my work doesn't matter. Like, why am I even doing this? And I think in moments like this, that is our job is to create, it speaks to people on another level. You know, just teasing, a visual learner. That's how I absorb the world is through visuals. And I think so many people do, and they don't even realize that.

Right. So even this, they're that Wall Street person, you know, walking by is it starts a thought in their head about what's my responsibility in relationship to this material, to this world, even for a split second. You've done your job. Yeah. You lit like a little ember for a little something. Even if you just provided a moment of reflection, joy, stopping in your tracks, not looking at your phone.

And you know, that is our job, as I says, to make people stop, look absorb and ideally reflect on what it is that they're seeing. So I think in times like this that’s our job. Yeah, making cause who else is gonna do it. Right. And I think it's, you know, I think part of the artist job is to notice. Yeah.

And I think we could yes, you can say it's because our noses are buried in our phones that we don't notice anymore. But I think that was an issue before that as well. Yeah. People walk around with blinders on. They don't stop to notice, you know, we can make them notice. Yeah. And I think artists tend to.

Whatever it is, a collective conscious or whatever it is, you know, and it's like I see trends and that's, you know, artists are observing people. So they're seeing something and making a commentary on whatever that aspect of society is, and in the realm of climate, you know, there's a lot of people that they approach in different ways.

There's people who approach it in very scientific ways. There's people who approach in having a gloom kind of way. I feel like I'm a bit more of an optimist. I believe in the resilience of nature. There's an honesty of that we live in a consumer society. Right? Like self contained societies making up words. Yes. Right.

So I know that me, as someone living in the world, like how the choices that I make make a difference to my overall concern, to the environment, so constantly having to buy things at the grocery store or to the clothing that you wear to, you know, am I taking the subway or, rideshare, you know, all those things are just constant choices that we have to make.

And, you know, there's always been situations that don't meet perfectly align with your goals. Right? So, just being aware and trying to be as balanced and proactive as you can. Yeah. And that's that's something that we can all do. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that was beautiful. Yeah. Thank you for giving me your time in this beautiful studio.

I'm so happy you were able to come do to me for

Thanks so much for joining me for that conversation. Mind blown. So many ideas, so many things to think about now. Oh my goodness. Please do look at the show notes and follow along with the links

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it can only grow. And I can get to interview other artists if you keep doing that. The more followers I've got, the better chances I have of interviewing fascinating artists like Christina. So please do click and follow and review. Thank you.

This podcast was created, produced and edited by me, Natalya Khorover. Theme music by RC Guida. To find out more about me, go to Art by Natalya.com, to find out about my community go to Repurposer Collective.com and to learn with me, check out all my offerings at EcoLoop, Dot Art. Thank you for listening.